Relentless Autosports - VRT: You be the judge
10-18-2007, 04:53 PM
#1
Relentless Autosports - VRT: You be the judge
Forged Performance has been on these boards for about 3 years. First, as Forged Internals, selling parts online, out of my house, and working at CP Racing doing all the VQ35 tuning. For the past 1.5 years, we've had our full service facility, and have worked on 100's of VQ35's.
I have the utmost respect for 99% of the vendors on this forum. NONE of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes. It takes a lot of guts, to put everything on the line, and start a business in the high performance aftermarket car area. Many of the top shop owners have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars, hiring talented people, purchasing equipment, and training their staff to be the best out there. Although we might disgree on certain things, I am sure of one thing: When you goto Forged Performance, GT Motorsports, MRC, Performance Factory, Function Tuned, Z1 Auto, Japtrix..etc..etc...you get the parts you pay for.
Now, I could chalk up one discrepancy as an honest mistake, but what I witnessed in my shop last week is completely inexcusible, and this needs to be posted publicly. I thought very long and hard about this, because I rarely, if ever, post negative information about another shop. But there is a big difference between needless shop bashing, and exposing outright fraud and criminal activity.
When Scott from Relentless Autosports left VRT several months ago, I always gave the guy the benefit of the doubt. But as he continued to post his moon dyno claims on various threads (with no 3rd party substantiation), I started questioning his integrity again. Having worked at VRT for so long, you would think he would work hard to re-establish credibility, rather than continuing to sound like VRT again.
Fast foward to two weeks ago, when a customer from Florida brought his car to us on a trailer, with a ton of parts for us to install, including a fully assembled crate motor from Relentless Autosports. The customer wishes to remain anonomous, so I am leaving him out of this. He is not a member of the forum.
What we discovered, is the following build sheet, which was faxed to us by the customer. Without even taking this engine apart, we immediately noticed several major discrepancies.
1) Customer paid for HKS gasket (STOCK HEAD GASKET ON THE ENGINE)
2) Customer paid for Port and Polished Heads (NO PORTING WORK WHATSOEVER)
3) Customer paid for NISMO main and head studs (THESE PARTS DO NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE...FOUND 100% STOCK OEM NISSAN HEAD BOLTS AND MAIN BOLTS in the engine
We didnt dissassemble the engine, to determine if anything else was missing, but the whole thing was just rediculous. If you look at the spec sheet I posted, you can see there are all kinds of weird parts that don't exist.
Nismo Main and Rod Bearings??
Nismo Rod Bolts??
Nismo Head Studs??
Nismo Main Studs?
JWT C2 Camshafts (this was a rev-up motor, so if it has cams, they should be S7's) And the car idled like STOCK. I dont know for certain, but it sure did sound like a stock cam'ed car, and this was with large 650cc injectors and UTEC controlling the engine...nothing fancy.
We installed all of the parts, the customer requested, and I informed the customer that I would tune the engine to base boost pressure of 5psi, becuase I didnt feel this engine was suitable for high powered forced induction. I did that, car was picked up, and my obligation has been met.
Let's just play around, and assume this was a "clerical error" as someone had mentioned in another thread (even though the build sheet came from the customer directly). Would you build a high powered FI engine with stock main bolts, stock head bolts, a stock head gasket, and fictious parts that don't even exist?
So I will let the forum comb over the spec sheet and the pics, and you guys can be the judge. But from my perspective, Scott@Relentless is 100% VRT Part II, but he is really nice and helpful in person. Michael A from VRT was a SUPER NICE guy over the phone, and in person too...and we all know what happened to him. It really is shocking.
Build Sheet
Stock Main Bolts:
Stock Head Bolts
No porting work at all (notice the OEM casting marks still readily visible), also note the silver head gasket which is OEM
Front shot of the entire engine, with Relentless Logo on it
I have the utmost respect for 99% of the vendors on this forum. NONE of us are perfect, and we all make mistakes. It takes a lot of guts, to put everything on the line, and start a business in the high performance aftermarket car area. Many of the top shop owners have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars, hiring talented people, purchasing equipment, and training their staff to be the best out there. Although we might disgree on certain things, I am sure of one thing: When you goto Forged Performance, GT Motorsports, MRC, Performance Factory, Function Tuned, Z1 Auto, Japtrix..etc..etc...you get the parts you pay for.
Now, I could chalk up one discrepancy as an honest mistake, but what I witnessed in my shop last week is completely inexcusible, and this needs to be posted publicly. I thought very long and hard about this, because I rarely, if ever, post negative information about another shop. But there is a big difference between needless shop bashing, and exposing outright fraud and criminal activity.
When Scott from Relentless Autosports left VRT several months ago, I always gave the guy the benefit of the doubt. But as he continued to post his moon dyno claims on various threads (with no 3rd party substantiation), I started questioning his integrity again. Having worked at VRT for so long, you would think he would work hard to re-establish credibility, rather than continuing to sound like VRT again.
Fast foward to two weeks ago, when a customer from Florida brought his car to us on a trailer, with a ton of parts for us to install, including a fully assembled crate motor from Relentless Autosports. The customer wishes to remain anonomous, so I am leaving him out of this. He is not a member of the forum.
What we discovered, is the following build sheet, which was faxed to us by the customer. Without even taking this engine apart, we immediately noticed several major discrepancies.
1) Customer paid for HKS gasket (STOCK HEAD GASKET ON THE ENGINE)
2) Customer paid for Port and Polished Heads (NO PORTING WORK WHATSOEVER)
3) Customer paid for NISMO main and head studs (THESE PARTS DO NOT EXIST IN REAL LIFE...FOUND 100% STOCK OEM NISSAN HEAD BOLTS AND MAIN BOLTS in the engine
We didnt dissassemble the engine, to determine if anything else was missing, but the whole thing was just rediculous. If you look at the spec sheet I posted, you can see there are all kinds of weird parts that don't exist.
Nismo Main and Rod Bearings??
Nismo Rod Bolts??
Nismo Head Studs??
Nismo Main Studs?
JWT C2 Camshafts (this was a rev-up motor, so if it has cams, they should be S7's) And the car idled like STOCK. I dont know for certain, but it sure did sound like a stock cam'ed car, and this was with large 650cc injectors and UTEC controlling the engine...nothing fancy.
We installed all of the parts, the customer requested, and I informed the customer that I would tune the engine to base boost pressure of 5psi, becuase I didnt feel this engine was suitable for high powered forced induction. I did that, car was picked up, and my obligation has been met.
Let's just play around, and assume this was a "clerical error" as someone had mentioned in another thread (even though the build sheet came from the customer directly). Would you build a high powered FI engine with stock main bolts, stock head bolts, a stock head gasket, and fictious parts that don't even exist?
So I will let the forum comb over the spec sheet and the pics, and you guys can be the judge. But from my perspective, Scott@Relentless is 100% VRT Part II, but he is really nice and helpful in person. Michael A from VRT was a SUPER NICE guy over the phone, and in person too...and we all know what happened to him. It really is shocking.
Build Sheet
Stock Main Bolts:
Stock Head Bolts
No porting work at all (notice the OEM casting marks still readily visible), also note the silver head gasket which is OEM
Front shot of the entire engine, with Relentless Logo on it
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 10-18-2007 at 04:56 PM.
10-18-2007, 05:04 PM
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Ouch....And the truth does come out. I wonder why your customer didn't just have you build the motor. How does your customer feel about this? Is he going to try and get his money back?
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10-18-2007, 05:08 PM
#10
davboy, we were thinking the exact same thing man!
You know what the excuse will be: "Oh, my guy accidentally shipped out the wrong motor, blah blah, this has never happened before blah blah, we'll make it right blah blah...".
You know what the excuse will be: "Oh, my guy accidentally shipped out the wrong motor, blah blah, this has never happened before blah blah, we'll make it right blah blah...".
Last edited by failsafe306; 10-18-2007 at 05:11 PM.
10-18-2007, 05:15 PM
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I was the 3rd party involved in arranging this motor between the cutomer and relentless autosports. I assume my reputation speaks for itself but I would like to address a few issues both openly and honestly. After speaking with the customer we figured what he needed was an assembled long block to both speed up his install and provide the necessary items he needed to boost safely to 5XX rwhp. I contacted Scott at Relentless to build such a motor and shot him a PO requesting certain parts. These parts were SCAT rods, CP pistons ( 96mm off the shelf from Brian Crower), an HKS metal headgasket for 96mm pistons, JWT Cams, JWT Springs, Stock valves and heads with mild work if any. I then sent this purchase order to Scott along with a few others and cut and paste from one invoice to the next not realizing that my own lack of attention to detail would escalate to anything of this proportion. I then needed to bill the customer so i simply converted the PO to an invoice and shot a copy of to the customer. One of the other invoices reqested C2 cams as the motor was a non-rev-up.
**The CAMS and Headgasket were my own typographical/lazy/stupid mistake**
Now i appreciate and applaude Sharif for contacting both myself and the customer when things didn't add up....an HKS head gasket would have an HKS sticking out of teh side. This is a sign of Sharif's and Forged's dilegence and attention to every detail. If i was the customer i would have expected and appreciated the same cautiousness.
I immediately contacted scott and was was informed of my mistake (i have the documents to show it if need be). I then contacted sharif and the customer and everything was on it's merry way.
I cannot speak for the other parts of the invoice but can and will take full responsibility for the errors I mentioned. Those that know me know that I will go above and beyond for people and base my relationships on trust and honesty. This was an unintentional mistake and i appologize for the trouble it has caused.
I thank sharif for looking out for my customer and I thank scott for speaking with my customer from day to ensure he was being taken care of. For my mistake i appologize.
**The CAMS and Headgasket were my own typographical/lazy/stupid mistake**
Now i appreciate and applaude Sharif for contacting both myself and the customer when things didn't add up....an HKS head gasket would have an HKS sticking out of teh side. This is a sign of Sharif's and Forged's dilegence and attention to every detail. If i was the customer i would have expected and appreciated the same cautiousness.
I immediately contacted scott and was was informed of my mistake (i have the documents to show it if need be). I then contacted sharif and the customer and everything was on it's merry way.
I cannot speak for the other parts of the invoice but can and will take full responsibility for the errors I mentioned. Those that know me know that I will go above and beyond for people and base my relationships on trust and honesty. This was an unintentional mistake and i appologize for the trouble it has caused.
I thank sharif for looking out for my customer and I thank scott for speaking with my customer from day to ensure he was being taken care of. For my mistake i appologize.
