**Built Motor Oil Analysis Inside-Would like some input**
03-31-2007, 06:21 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Resolute
Based on Used Oil Analysis done so far, and it is by no means complete, I would recommend the following oils to start with for FI cars:
Mobil 1 0W-40. A lot of people report oil consumption with M1, but who knows what grade they are using. This grade has performed steller in UOA tests and is the oil of choice for a number of factory turbo cars on the oil drop server, like Audi 2.7L TT and 1.8T engines. I am using it now and will post another UOA on it when I hit 3k miles. this oil has a cSt of 14.3 @ 100 deg C and an HTHS of 3.6. remember-higher numbers mean thicker oil at temperature. The HTHS test is done at 150 deg Celsius.
Quaker State Q Advanced 5W-40 European formula. Very thick with a good base stock. cSt of 14.5 @100 C and HTHS of 3.9 I have no UOA done on the VQ engine, so if you want to be the first- by all means. So far, it has done very well in other turbo engines like the 4G63.
Shell Rotella 5W-40. Often called the uber oil for the common man. cSt and HTHS numbers are posted on the oil drop forums somewhere, I'll see if I can find them. I also have no UOA done on it with the VQ engine. But, very promising.
None of these are exotic and designer label oils. They can be bought at most stores like Wal-Mart. They are good oils. They are not super-uber PAO base stock/Ester/miracle space shuttle fluid mixes. I don't think it should matter what's on the bottle or the base stock if the oil works great- and that's exactly what I'm trying to put together on the sticky. A fact sheet that represents just how well oil performs in our engines without the advertising and "cool name" factors- just what works.
That said, there are expensive oils worth trying and, again, I would love to see some UOA's of. Motul 8100 ETech 0W-40 and BMW specific LL-01 5W-30. Both have decent 100 C numbers and excellent HTHS numbers. The 8100 0W-30 is too thin for us in my opinion. It is **barely** a 30wt oil. Same with their 300V Power 5W-40. **barely** a 40 wt oil. Great HTHS number though if all you do is run 10/10ths at the track all day.
Amsoil series 3000 oil, or the TSO 0W-30. both look promising and the UOA's on the TSO 0W-30 looked really good. The ASL 5W-30 did not fare too well in the tests, and I wouldn't use it. Lead was too high and the formulas thinned out too much- especially when you look at what it costs.
Pennzoil Platinum is widely talked about as a great oil, but it sucked in the UOA. Barely any base stock left and a lot of oxidation. i would like to get another UOA done to verify the results weren't an anomoly, but the user won't go back to it.
Stay away from the 5W-30 Royal Purple. ***puts flame suit on*** I know people here love it, but it did not do well in the UOA test. I'm not trying to sell anyhting and have no bias one way or another, so i have no reason to BS anyone here. But, it thinned out like crazy. It is probably good for regular to short oil change intervals and mild modified VQ engines. On a boosted Z, I wouldn't touch it. I have one UOA of it done and will get a second when I can to verify the results weren't a fluke. But, looking at the cSt numbers- I'm not surprised.
I guess that's enough options for now. Please, if you wnat to see how well an oil is protecting and holding up, do a UOA. It's cheap and very easy. Then post the results in the sticky so we can all see what works and what should be avoided. Like Royal Purple
(but seriously, don't shoot the messenger all you RP lovers)
Will
Mobil 1 0W-40. A lot of people report oil consumption with M1, but who knows what grade they are using. This grade has performed steller in UOA tests and is the oil of choice for a number of factory turbo cars on the oil drop server, like Audi 2.7L TT and 1.8T engines. I am using it now and will post another UOA on it when I hit 3k miles. this oil has a cSt of 14.3 @ 100 deg C and an HTHS of 3.6. remember-higher numbers mean thicker oil at temperature. The HTHS test is done at 150 deg Celsius.
Quaker State Q Advanced 5W-40 European formula. Very thick with a good base stock. cSt of 14.5 @100 C and HTHS of 3.9 I have no UOA done on the VQ engine, so if you want to be the first- by all means. So far, it has done very well in other turbo engines like the 4G63.
Shell Rotella 5W-40. Often called the uber oil for the common man. cSt and HTHS numbers are posted on the oil drop forums somewhere, I'll see if I can find them. I also have no UOA done on it with the VQ engine. But, very promising.
None of these are exotic and designer label oils. They can be bought at most stores like Wal-Mart. They are good oils. They are not super-uber PAO base stock/Ester/miracle space shuttle fluid mixes. I don't think it should matter what's on the bottle or the base stock if the oil works great- and that's exactly what I'm trying to put together on the sticky. A fact sheet that represents just how well oil performs in our engines without the advertising and "cool name" factors- just what works.
That said, there are expensive oils worth trying and, again, I would love to see some UOA's of. Motul 8100 ETech 0W-40 and BMW specific LL-01 5W-30. Both have decent 100 C numbers and excellent HTHS numbers. The 8100 0W-30 is too thin for us in my opinion. It is **barely** a 30wt oil. Same with their 300V Power 5W-40. **barely** a 40 wt oil. Great HTHS number though if all you do is run 10/10ths at the track all day.
Amsoil series 3000 oil, or the TSO 0W-30. both look promising and the UOA's on the TSO 0W-30 looked really good. The ASL 5W-30 did not fare too well in the tests, and I wouldn't use it. Lead was too high and the formulas thinned out too much- especially when you look at what it costs.
Pennzoil Platinum is widely talked about as a great oil, but it sucked in the UOA. Barely any base stock left and a lot of oxidation. i would like to get another UOA done to verify the results weren't an anomoly, but the user won't go back to it.
Stay away from the 5W-30 Royal Purple. ***puts flame suit on*** I know people here love it, but it did not do well in the UOA test. I'm not trying to sell anyhting and have no bias one way or another, so i have no reason to BS anyone here. But, it thinned out like crazy. It is probably good for regular to short oil change intervals and mild modified VQ engines. On a boosted Z, I wouldn't touch it. I have one UOA of it done and will get a second when I can to verify the results weren't a fluke. But, looking at the cSt numbers- I'm not surprised.
I guess that's enough options for now. Please, if you wnat to see how well an oil is protecting and holding up, do a UOA. It's cheap and very easy. Then post the results in the sticky so we can all see what works and what should be avoided. Like Royal Purple
(but seriously, don't shoot the messenger all you RP lovers)Will
I have got several UOAs done, all of which were posted. Not sure they are usable for your database, as many were with leaky HG's, so there is obvious contamination.
Let me know if you want them anyway...some are good.
PM me your email, or smth.
I have a track event on the 21st, and will use M1 0w40 as per your recommendation.
03-31-2007, 09:28 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Machupo
wow! i'm definitely going to have to get rid of this RP! I spend about 30 minutes a day on the highway cruising at 5k rpm... i've only put 800 miles on the RP, but it sounds like it might be done already, lol.
If you know of a place in germany to get an oil analysis done, i'll try to get this stuff tested for you.
If you know of a place in germany to get an oil analysis done, i'll try to get this stuff tested for you.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html
Originally Posted by n8vz
Originally Posted by captj3
What about castrol syntec 10w40? Do you know how it did?
Originally Posted by rocks
Have you ever tested a 20-50w oil? I ran mobil one 20-50w in my porsche 928 for 5 years and drove it really hard with no problems. It held 8 quarts of oil and i changed it 2 times a year, or every 6 months.
Originally Posted by Enron Exec
Its a shame most ppl dont see the stickies, i know i don't alot. Very nice post again Resolute.
Will
03-31-2007, 10:28 PM
#23
I am switching to a synthetic oil on the next change i will try a 20-50w oil. My porsche owners manual recomended it for high performance driving year round. This was back in 1984, and most 928 owners used a 20-50w. This was also due to running the engine at 7500-8000 rpms it would let less oil in the combustion chambers. It would let out some smoke on a 7500 rpm shift. Remember this was a v8 made in 1984 . Some people also suggested valvoline oil because it was designed to be burned in the combustion chambers. I can not remember the details and i am a little buzzed. With castrol 10-30 dino oil i lose about 1/2 quart or less every 4k-5k miles right now.
With the mobil one in my porsche i just added a quart or so when it got low but the oil pan gasket leaked a little when it was not drove very much, the tranny also held 8 quarts.
One thing i also wonder about on the Z is people use a oil pan spacer but does it come with a longer pick up tube for the oil pump so you are still picking up oil from the same spot in the sump? If not this could lead to you picking up foamed oil from the crankshaft. I have learned about this from the 928 engine foaming oil in long sweeping curves, there were redrilled crankshafts to get rid of this problem.
. Some people also suggested valvoline oil because it was designed to be burned in the combustion chambers. I can not remember the details and i am a little buzzed. With castrol 10-30 dino oil i lose about 1/2 quart or less every 4k-5k miles right now. With the mobil one in my porsche i just added a quart or so when it got low but the oil pan gasket leaked a little when it was not drove very much, the tranny also held 8 quarts.
One thing i also wonder about on the Z is people use a oil pan spacer but does it come with a longer pick up tube for the oil pump so you are still picking up oil from the same spot in the sump? If not this could lead to you picking up foamed oil from the crankshaft. I have learned about this from the 928 engine foaming oil in long sweeping curves, there were redrilled crankshafts to get rid of this problem.
03-31-2007, 11:20 PM
#24
You're info on Type V based oils not doing well on protection during start up is dead wrong. Esters are polar in nature and bond with the metal parts in the engine. At ZERO oil pressure ester based oils will protect your engine such as a cold start up situation where oil presure is zero. They do not rely on a pressurized oil film between 2 metal surfaces to protect them. Conventional oils must have oil pressure and a film of adequate pressure and stregnth between the two surfaces in contact while in motion in order to afford protection.
But in reality who really cares. Your cars paint will fade, and your cup holder will fall apart and your car will disintigrate around your perfectly ptotected and lubricated motor.
Yeah I got a 78 Pinto with a bright red interior, and a canary yellow exterior which is being held tgether with speed tape but the engine purs like a kitten and is still within OE spec for bearing and camshaft wear.
JET
But in reality who really cares. Your cars paint will fade, and your cup holder will fall apart and your car will disintigrate around your perfectly ptotected and lubricated motor.
Yeah I got a 78 Pinto with a bright red interior, and a canary yellow exterior which is being held tgether with speed tape but the engine purs like a kitten and is still within OE spec for bearing and camshaft wear.
JET
04-01-2007, 12:30 AM
#25
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
You're info on Type V based oils not doing well on protection during start up is dead wrong. Esters are polar in nature and bond with the metal parts in the engine. At ZERO oil pressure ester based oils will protect your engine such as a cold start up situation where oil presure is zero. They do not rely on a pressurized oil film between 2 metal surfaces to protect them. Conventional oils must have oil pressure and a film of adequate pressure and stregnth between the two surfaces in contact while in motion in order to afford protection.
JET
JET
Esters, as we all learned in Chem II are different from other function groups like Alcohols or Amines because of the COOR structure they carry. One Carbon with two Oxygen (the COO in COOR), combined with an "R" structure that is any number of hydrocarbon arrangements. Esters are aromatic and often "fruity" or sweet tasting, and are responsible for the nice smell your car's air freshener has. In fact, most esters are naturally found in fruit and fatty acids. But, I guess it's not nearly as glamorous for the marketing department of an oil to say "made from peaches" as it is to say "used in jets".
Since we are talking automotive engine oils that undergo high stress from being in a FI engine, and since this thread was started by Alberto we're going to assume some racing is involved, we are most interested in how an oil is going to behave under that stress. Esters are used in jets because of the high temperatures involved and therefore high stress. Here's why: The COO part of the ester equation means that when an appropriate Hydrocarbon is attached, the molecule is very stable under such stress. The excellent HTHS numbers of G5 oils reflect this and it means that an ester might be the best oil for automotive applications that also see sustained high temps and stress- such as a TT VQ running Laguna Seca all day.
Cold start and frequent starting and stopping of the engine is a different matter. Esters do have great polar affinity and this achieves the film strength you mentioned without the need for pressure, and as such esters should have great cold start protection like you said. BUT... because of that COO head on the hydrocarbon, esters undergo hydrolysis in the presence of an acid catalyst. The result is a carbolic acid and an alcohol. Neither are good at lubricating, but this process is the reason we have soap from fat. (ever seen that movie Fight Club?)
So, where does this "acid catalyst" come from? Great question. Acids are naturally produced by oxidation of the oil itself and the oxidation of the modifiers added to the oil. There's no way to completely avoid oxidation, unless we run our engine in space- and then it wouldn't run at all and we don't really need oil. When the ester base stock meets the acid produced from oxidation of, say, the viscosity index modifiers in an oil(since they really are the first to oxidize) then it breaks down from hydrolysis. The bad news is, this happens when the oil is sitting idle and gets worse with time as the oil continues to oxidize. The good news is, it's reversable when the oil heats up again. When the oil is heated, that energy allows Esters to be formed from carbolic acids and alcohols to an appreciable extent, so you could say that the oil "recovers" after it is warmed up. However, that cold start meant that there was more acid and alcohol present than there should have been. Small amounts at first, but over time, each cold start makes it worse and worse as the amount of acids from oxidation continue to increase, and these acids cause ester hydrolysis to break the base stock down. Eventually this combats the effectiveness of the film strength you mentioned since not every oil-coated rotating part of the engine is immune from the effect of hydrolysis.
So, for engines that are at sustained high temps and stress and need very little viscosity index modifiers, friction modifiers, etc.. but need great protection, then esters are your base stock. Great, for say- jet engines. Not so great for say- grandma's Camry. (see my ester UOA on a Camry under my next post) Yes, esters are polar charged to metals to create film strength under zero pressure, but the effects of hydrolysis can stack up against it over time. So, if you drive it like you stole it, then Motul is a good oil for you if you can afford it.
Will
EDIT: I can't spell.
Last edited by Resolute; 04-01-2007 at 12:38 AM.
04-01-2007, 02:01 AM
#26
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I guess the challenge, is finding an oil that is best for extreme usage FI, but also fairly good for daily driving. Keeping in mind, that forged engines are not designed, or expected to run for 200K miles, unlikely an OEM engine. Again, this is just my opinion, but I would prefer an oil that has the highest extreme use protection, even at the expense of some cold start wear and tear...if this is in fact the case.
If I understand correctly, you sell Motul. It works great for high stress and high heat conditions, like on the track. It isn't the best for the daily driver. As an example, If someone called you and wanted brake pads and insisted on a race compound, you would want to make sure it was for the track and not the street. Anyone running Performance Friction 01 or Hawk Blue on the street would only see rotor wear, noise, and poor cold stopping distances. Just because those compounds are race-worthy, does not mean they must automatically be more than good enough for street use. Like you said, it is about a compromise. A good street pad will have some traits of a race pad but be designed for the street. Same with oil. What works great on the track is not necessarily formulated to be the best for regular street use.
Consider the UOA posted below from a STi with three different test intervals shown. Nothing really scary about it, except that he paid like 26 bucks a can (or whatever 300V costs, I really haven't looked) for an oil that has pretty high wear compared to what other UOA's have shown with a different brand. Look at the iron and copper content from wear, and how much the Moly had broken down from what the virgin oil had. Wow. He posted over on the oil drop server that he's a daily driver and does not push his car hard, except for the last oil change interval where he started tracking his car. His first two oil change tests are obviously much worse. Compared to what other daily-driven, stock, STi oil analysis have shown, he would have been better with another oil. There's no reason for him to spend that kind of money when he could have spent less on something like Quaker State 5W-40 and had better results.
Another UOA compilation has a Camry owner who tried 300V in their engine, along with several other oils. (the thought of a Camry owner buying 300V just makes me laugh for some reason, I mean what the hell do they need a full ester base stock for? Do they track this car.. LOL it's just funny to me) The 300V had higher wear than all the others posted. It's a daily driven car and not boosted or anything crazy like that. Here's the table with their posted results, you'll notice iron and copper are higher as well as most other variables:
Oil
Column 1 (left): Castrol RS 10w50
Column 2: Shell Helix Ultra 15w50
Column 3: Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
Column 4: BP Visco 7000 0w40
Column 5: Castrol SLX 0w30
Column 6: SPC 0w30
Column 7: Fuchs Titan GT1 0w20
Column 8 (right): Motul 300v double ester 0w20
Mileage on car
51898km, 57018km, 62015km, 67229km, 70247km, 72270km,73647km, 79602km
Mileage on oil
4898km, 5120km, 4997km, 5214km, 3018km, 2023km, 1377km, 5955km
Time on oil
2months, 3.5months, 5months, 6months, 4months, 2months, 1.5months, 4.5months
Make-up oil
none, none, none, none, none, none, none, none
IR
Soot (St)
0, 8, 87, 11, 0, 11, 0, 13
Oxidation (Oxi)
22, 34, 0, 27, 83, 15, 150, 1385
Nitration (Nit)
37, 24, 10, 34, 105, 27, 60, 115
Sulfation (Sul)
29, 22, 8, 21, 34, 43, 0, 0
Metal
Iron (Fe)
2, 2, 7, 9, 5, 3, 2, 11
Copper (Cu)
2, 4, 7, 8, 5, 6, 3, 10
Chromium (Cr)
0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1
Aluminum (Al)
1, 1, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 5
Lead (Pb)
0, 1, 0, 3, 0, 7, 3, 1
Tin (Sn)
0, 0, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 3
Silicon (Si)
3, 4, 8, 10, 9, 9, 2, 17
Sodium (Na)
0, 2, 6, 2, 2, 0, 1, 8
Potassium (K)
0, 0, 2, 4, 0, 2, 3, 1
Molybdenum (Mo)
0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 24, 2, 760
Phosphorus (P)
619, 654, 684, 778, 771, 982, 462, 971
Zinc (Zn)
742, 844, 810, 874, 852, 1279, 101, 1100
Calcium (Ca)
2110, 1250, 1040, 2446, 3072, 2960, 3390, 1750
Magnesium (Mg)
189, 766, 843, 270, 160, 33, 12, 1104
Physical
Water (W)
N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N
Fuel (F)
N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N
Antifreeze (A)
N, N, N, N, N, N, N, N
Total Base Number (Tbn)
8, 6, 8, 7, 8.5, 8.5, 10, 7
Viscosity At 100 C (V100)
18.4, 15.7, 13.8, 13.6, 12.0, 11.0, 8.3, 9.5
OK, the table doesn't look like it should, but each row has eight values that correspond to each of the eight oils used. I'm sure people can figure it out.
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
I think my engine oil analysis will be a good torture test analysis. The past 3 months have been very very cold. I have cold started my car dozens of time in sub 32F weather, so we'll see how she looks.
Resolute, it is my understanding that esters "cling" better to metal parts when the engine is not running. Shouldnt this improve cold start protection to a degree?
Resolute, it is my understanding that esters "cling" better to metal parts when the engine is not running. Shouldnt this improve cold start protection to a degree?
As far as esters and "clinging" to metal.. please see me previous post. After reading that post on oxidation of acids and how they encourage hydrolysis of the ester, take a look at the oxidation level of the oil in the Camry UOA result. Highest number by far was in the 300V. Again, not so good for the daily driver.
Will
Edit: You'll also see that the lowest TBN number was with the 300V, that number is how much of the base stock was left. The 300V broke down the most in other words, and that foes in hand with the oxidation and what I posted earlier in response to Jet.
Last edited by Resolute; 04-01-2007 at 02:06 AM.
04-01-2007, 11:44 AM
#27
Originally Posted by rocks
One thing i also wonder about on the Z is people use a oil pan spacer but does it come with a longer pick up tube for the oil pump so you are still picking up oil from the same spot in the sump? If not this could lead to you picking up foamed oil from the crankshaft. I have learned about this from the 928 engine foaming oil in long sweeping curves, there were redrilled crankshafts to get rid of this problem.
04-01-2007, 04:01 PM
#28
Originally Posted by wtf no turbo
Search is your friend.....https://my350z.com/forum/forced-induction/252125-official-forced-induction-engine-oil-thread.html You guys blast newbs for doing it.
Resolute-thank you for all the info shared, I apologize for not having the report sheet up yet my scanner is giving me issues. I'll report back on the 10W-40 Motul 8100. Thanks to everyone else who contributed something worthwhile, in threads like this we all learn-except Resolute he seems to know his $hit
04-02-2007, 12:07 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Alberto
Resolute-thank you for all the info shared, I apologize for not having the report sheet up yet my scanner is giving me issues. I'll report back on the 10W-40 Motul 8100. Thanks to everyone else who contributed something worthwhile, in threads like this we all learn-except Resolute he seems to know his $hit
Will
04-02-2007, 12:09 PM
#32
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Good to know!!! I just bought 6qts of 300V 15W50 to run after my break in period... Looks like I should rethink that decision!
Too bad we can't have all of our posts be this infomative on here...
Too bad we can't have all of our posts be this infomative on here...
04-03-2007, 09:08 AM
#36
Originally Posted by danisr1
Most informative thread i have read in a while. Thanks for the info.
Resolute in your opinion what would be a good oil for me in my FI 350z in south florida? i always wonder since its hot here 10 months out of the year.
Resolute in your opinion what would be a good oil for me in my FI 350z in south florida? i always wonder since its hot here 10 months out of the year.
First, how do you drive? If you track the car a lot, or drive the car really hard most or all of the time, then I think the single most important thing to consider is an oil's HTHS number. This is where an ester shines and it would be good to look at the Motul 8100, 300V, or Redline's oils. Hopefully we get some UOA's on these soon. If you are an occasional track day car and are civil on the roads, especially with a lot of highway cruising, then the HTHS number is not the most important factor. A good oil that protects better than most at extreme temps, while keeping thick at standard operating temps and providing consistent good start-up protection is key. For this, I would try Quaker State Q Advanced 5W-40, Shell Rotella Synthetic 5W-40, M1 0W-40, or Amsoil AMO 10W-40. These have all looked very good in other turbo engines in a warm climate.
The trick with a FI engine is that I think most are built blocks, so a thicker oil works better with the piston-to-wall clearances. Too thick an oil might not provide the viscosity needed to lube the bearings properly. My opinion based on looking at UOA's of turbocharged built block engines, albeit non VQ engines, is that a 5W-40 or 10W-40 or 50 is the best all-around option. Try and avoid straight heavy weight oils like a 50 or 60 wt. There is an old myth that the closer the winter grade is to the standard grade, the more stable or durable an oil is. This is just not a true generalization anymore. The modifiers that allow multi-viscosity grades do not take the place of base stock, and often allow various friction modifiers to be used as well. The results are oils like M1 0W-40, that are thicker at high temp, flow beter at low temp, and have a higher HTHS number, while keeping more base stock and having less shear than M1 5W-30. All the oils I've listed here have similiar properties over other oils that have closer winter and standard temperature grades. The only benefit to running a lighter grade of oil is that there is less viscous drag and therefore more power and mpg to be had with the thinner oil. I would not risk protection on a FI engine for a slight mpg increase. And if you can feel the difference in power a 30wt has over a 40wt, the your engine isn't making that much power. So, I usually recommend a thicker weight oil for FI cars, especially if they live in warm climates.
The reality is, there is no one way to tell which oil is the best by looking at the viscosity grade. That is where testing the oil is important. The data we have so far on FI engines is a good start, but get a UOA done to see if it really is the best for your driving style and engine performance.
Will
